In this gripping episode, we delve into a heart-wrenching case that shocked Australia and sparked intense debates within the criminal justice system. Join us as we uncover the tragic tale of an Australian mother Kathleen Folbigg, who spent a harrowing 20 years behind bars for the mysterious deaths of her four children. Was she a victim of a flawed justice system or a cold-hearted murderer? As we dig deeper, disturbing questions emerge, challenging our understanding of the case and the truth behind these heartbreaking events. Join us on this gripping journey as we seek justice, examine the aftermath, and grapple with the enduring mysteries that surround the Australian mother's decades-long imprisonment for the deaths of her four children.
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0:06 Welcome to Pushing Up Lilies.
0:08 I'm your host, Julie Mattson.
0:10 Pushing Up Lilies is a weekly true crime podcast with spine tingling, unusual and terrifyingly true stories from my perspective as a forensic death investigator and a sexual assault nurse examiner.
0:24 Do I have some stories for you?
0:26 Are you ready this week?
0:30 All right, y'all.
0:31 I'm excited to share that.
0:32 We do have some great interviews coming up.
0:35 It's not gonna be this week, but I do have some people that I have met recently just by happen chance and they are willing to discuss details of things that have happened in their family that they really haven't talked about before or haven't talked about much.
0:54 They are ready to talk about it and I'm really proud that they've chosen my podcast to do so, but I did find kind of an interesting story this week that I thought y'all might want to hear about this happened at an Arby's restaurant.
1:10 We love Arby's.
1:12 We don't eat it as much now because we're trying to be healthy, kind of watch what we eat a little bit better.
1:19 But Nguyet Le and her family is actually seeking $1 million in damages.
1:26 After she was found dead in the freezer at an Arby's restaurant.
1:31 And this happened in New Iberia, Louisiana on May 11th.
1:36 She was found by her son.
1:38 He was coming into work at 10 in the morning and found her in the freezer.
1:43 She had been there all night because she was at work the day before she was general manager at an Arby's in Houston and she was sent to Louisiana to help them out.
1:56 It was gonna be just a temporary fix.
1:58 And so she'd been there for four weeks and they had her stay for a couple of extra weeks to try and get some issues taken care of.
2:06 So she was there a little bit longer than planned, but the freezer door was broken for over nine months and Arby's neglected to fix it.
2:18 So they told the store owner they told the manager and it was never fixed.
2:26 So the family is actually seeking a million dollars for negligence and gross negligence against Arby's.
2:35 The officer on scene said that the inside of the freezer door was actually bloody because Lee had beaten her hands on the door, either trying to get out or hoping to get someone's attention.
2:49 Apparently, the latch on the door had been broken since August of 2022 coworkers actually said that they had been having to since August prop the door open and use a screwdriver to open and close it.
3:05 She was found in the fetal position on the frozen floor in the freezer where it was minus 10 degrees.
3:13 And her preliminary autopsy determined that hypothermia was the cause of death.
3:19 It just is really sad because I mean, I was thinking back all these times that I worked at restaurants when I was younger, I'd go into the cooler to get something and the door would shut behind me.
3:31 And I just had this overwhelming fear for some reason that I wouldn't be able to get out.
3:36 Of course, it was during work hours, there was always someone else there.
3:41 So I knew that eventually someone would come in there before they closed the place down and find me.
3:47 But it was just always a scary thought.
3:50 It did cross my mind a lot.
3:52 Of course, those of us who are a little bit claustrophobic do experience those thoughts more frequently than others, but we do run across strange deaths like that and it's not something that you see every day, but you can only imagine some of the different kind of deaths and the different positions that we find people in.
4:14 So this poor little lady had been there all night and I hate that she had to be found by her son that's really difficult.
4:22 But the family is seeking the $1 million for negligence and gross negligence.
4:26 So it'll be interesting to see how that goes.
4:30 I'm pretty sure it probably won't go to trial.
4:33 I would think that for the interest of everyone, Arby's will probably choose to settle out of court.
4:39 They obviously know that it should have been fixed.
4:43It had been broken for way too long.
4:45 And even though she was aware of it, had it been fixed, like it was supposed to have been, this would not have happened.
4:52 So super sad story, but I didn't know if y'all had heard about it.
4:57 And so I wanted to bring that to your attention because again, it is kind of an unusual death and something that I have not worked, I've definitely worked hypothermia cases where maybe a homeless person was outside and it was cold but never someone actually locked in a restaurant freezer.
5:15 So a little bit different.
5:17 Also, Kathleen Folbigg was actually an Australian woman who was in prison and she was put there in oh three for 20 years over the deaths of her four Children.
5:30 So she was released recently after scientific evidence showed that the deaths were actually natural.
5:38 So can you imagine spending 20 years in prison being accused of killing all four of your Children?
5:47 I mean, if you didn't do it, you would have suffered such a huge loss anyway, that you might as well have been in prison is what I'm thinking.
5:56 But so she was released from prison in Grafton recently and she had been convicted of manslaughter in the death of her son Caleb and in the murder of her other Children Patrick Sarah and Laura, she was not supposed to be eligible for parole until 2028 but all four of her Children died at a very young age.
6:21 So you can imagine to a jury that this did look just a little bit suspicious.
6:28 Of course, I would have loved to have been there during this court trial to see exactly what the autopsy showed.
6:35 If there was any physical trauma or physical injuries to any of the Children, they would have all had autopsies because of their age.
6:47 Even back then, we wouldn't just assume that it was a homicide and rule it a homicide or assume that it was natural and rule it natural without actually looking a little further into it given their age.
7:00 But her first child, Caleb died in 1989.
7:05 Now, Caleb was only 19 days old and then Patrick was born in 91 and he died eight months later.
7:14 So he was also very young.
7:16 And then Sarah was born in 93 died when she was 10 months old.
7:23 And then Laura was born in 99 she survived the longest, she actually died when she was 19 months old.
7:32 She discovered all the deaths which did look unusual to a jury when mom's always the one that finds them.
7:41 And mom seems to have always been the one that saw them last.
7:45 It does look suspicious and kind of makes everyone kind of judge immediately off the bat.
7:51 Now, it's believed that a genetic mutation called calm two actually killed Sarah and Laura.
7:59 But Laura also had myocarditis.
8:04 Now we see myocarditis a lot, even in younger kids because of inflammation of the heart muscle and a lot of people when they have, it can have shortness of breath, irregular heartbeat, chest pain, the duration of the symptoms can vary.
8:21 They can just have symptoms for hours or for months.
8:26 It can cause heart failure or even cardiac arrest.
8:30 This can happen a lot following a bacterial infection.
8:36 certain medications can cause it.
8:38 Viral infections can cause it and also autoimmune disorder.
8:43 So this is something that we do see a lot.
8:46 We see it a lot in the deaths of younger kids who may have had a recent diagnosis of strep and then they're found deceased in bed and upon autopsy, it is found that strip has actually caused them to go into heart failure or cause their heart to be enlarged and they just pass away in their sleep.
9:09 So, Laura did have myocarditis, but she did also have this genetic mutation called Calm Two along with her sister Sarah.
9:21 Now these Children each died suddenly and very unexpectedly while they were sleeping ages ranging from 19 days to 18 months.
9:31 This was investigated to see actually if a genetic case could explain all of their deaths because this mother was convicted.
9:41 So scientifically, it was determined that they just had a fatal arrhythmic event that could have been triggered by infections that was kind of determined to be the explanation of their deaths.
9:58 It was determined later that they were natural deaths and not caused by the mom.
10:04 Now, these two kids inherited this maternally from mom, but at this time, she had absolutely no knowledge of this.
10:14 And then also Patrick had a neurogenic disorder.
10:19 So it was initially believed for whatever reason that she smothered them.
10:25 I'm gonna guess that the reason for that would be because there were no outward signs of trauma, they definitely weren't drowned.
10:33 She didn't strangle them because there were no strangulation marks around their neck.
10:39 And so that's the best that they could come up with basically.
10:43 So, you know, we look in the eyes when we go to our death scenes and that is because we see Patiki eye or what looks like a very small pinpoint bleeding sometimes in the eyes if someone has been strangled.
10:59 And of course, sometimes they have redness or their face is flushed or there's scratch marks on them where they've tried to free themselves.
11:08 Of course, these are infants.
11:10 So you probably wouldn't see that.
11:12 But many times with strangulation, there's bleeding from the ear, bleeding from the nose.
11:17 If it's an older person, they're struggling to get away, sometimes they have a broken nose.
11:22 So none of these were seen in these Children.
11:26 However, this poor mom actually still got sentenced to 40 years in prison and spent 20 before they scientifically figured out that these deaths were all natural.
11:38 Now, initially, her husband had contacted the police after he read in her diary, something that he believed, implied that she harmed the kids.
11:51 So interesting, her writings which were once believed to prove that she actually killed.
11:58 Her four Children were actually just a grieving mother and I'm sure a depressed mother blaming herself for the death of each child not knowing what happened, hoping that it wasn't something genetic that was passed on from her family.
12:14 There was no obvious explanation about the deaths.
12:19 She continued to claim that there wasn't anything that she did to her Children to harm them.
12:25 Ever basically blaming herself and feeling sad and depressed over their deaths was misinterpreted by her husband to actually be admission that she had harmed the kids.
12:39 So she was arrested in 01.
12:42 She was actually convicted in oh three and she got 40 years in prison.
12:48 Now she maintained her innocence.
12:51 She always said she would never harm her Children.
12:56 She was a good mom, but the dad actually was the one that contacted the police because of the diary.
13:04 So what do you read my diary for anyway?
13:06 But the weird truth about her is that and this probably also came out in the trial, I'm guessing.
13:14 But in 69 Kathleen's biological father, John, his nickname was Taffy Britton actually murdered her mother.
13:24 Kathleen Donovan was her mother her dad stabbed her mom 24 times.
13:31 Now, at that time, Kathleen was only 18 months old.
13:37 So you can imagine, you know, her oldest child only lives to be 19 months old, which is just a month older than she was when she lost her mom.
13:52 And so my guess is that it was kind of construed that this diary entry was an admission of guilt.
14:02 And because her mom had been murdered by her dad when she was close to the same age as the oldest child, when the oldest child passed away, that she was somehow guilty, which again is really sad and we do see this happen a lot.
14:19 Thank goodness.
14:20 Now people are getting out when they are proven to be innocent.
14:26 It's just a shame that they spend 2030.
14:29 I mean, a lot of time in prison for something that they didn't do.
14:34 Kathleen's dad was arrested the following day and he actually served 15 years for murder before they deported him back to England.
14:44 So Kathleen was placed into foster care, then she eventually went to a children's home and then she went to a permanent foster family.
14:53 Now she left school at the age of 18.
14:55 And then she married Craig her husband in 1987 Caleb, her first born was born February 1st of 89 reportedly he had always breathed loudly.
15:10And we all know if we have Children that that is the scariest thing ever they have all these different monitors now that will alarm and let us know if our kids stop breathing during the night.
15:24 And that was always our biggest fear, right.
15:26 We sleep with our hand on top of our kids and we want to make sure that their back is moving up and down as they breathe.
15:32 But Caleb was always known to be a loud breather.
15:37 He had been diagnosed with laryngomalacia, which is when the upper larynx collapses inward, when you inhale.
15:46 So it actually obstructs the airway.
15:49 He was diagnosed with this and they knew that that's why he breathed loudly on February 20th, Kathleen put him to sleep in a room and it was the room next to hers and Craig's, he was very restless and then Kathleen went to check on him about two AM and the death was ruled back then.
16:11 They called SIDS caught death, which you know, caught is kind of like what you sleep on when you're camping in my mind.
16:17 But they called it caught death, which is basically what we call SIDS.
16:22 Now, our sudden infant death syndrome that is pretty much unexplained.
16:27 Now, Patrick was born June 3rd of 1990 Craig actually put him to bed on October 18th.
16:36 And then Craig was awakened by Kathleen screaming.
16:40 Now she was standing over his crib.
16:42 Craig came in there, saw her standing over his crib crying and then Craig did CPR.
16:49 Now Patrick was diagnosed with epilepsy and cortical blindness following that incident because he had gone some time without breathing without air and he actually survived four more months.
17:02 But he did die four months later of seizures on February 18th of 91.
17:09 And when that happened, Kathleen phoned her husband Craig to tell him and her words were, it's happened again.
17:17 So again, never any admission of guilt of any kind.
17:23 But to the average person who was unaware of his previous history of epilepsy, this looked suspicious again.
17:32 Now they moved to New South Wales and then Sarah was born October 4th of 92 died on August 29th of 93.
17:42 She was only 10 months old.
17:44 And then in 96 Laura was born on August the seventh and then she was actually found deceased in her crib on February the 27th of 99 at the age of 18 months.
17:58 So the trial was seven weeks long.
18:02 And again, everyone believed that Kathleen had smothered them that maybe she was just impatient that she had grown frustrated and couldn't handle the pressure of being a mom and thought that she just smothered them all again.
18:20 Absolutely no evidence.
18:22 Nothing to indicate that she had done this other than the fact that it just did look unusual to the average person that all four of her young Children had died.
18:34 So the case was pretty much based solely on suspicion and we all know right, we watch enough TV that we know that there's a little more to it than this and this is back in oh three.
18:46 So I get it, that technology wasn't what it is now.
18:51 But still, I feel like forensics did exist at that point, maybe we just didn't know how to use it appropriately.
18:57 But when Kathleen's police interview was played in court, it upset her and she tried to run from the courtroom and again, that probably made her appear guilty.
19:10 But they also had acquaintances that testified on her behalf that made statements about her being a very caring mother, no admissions of guilt in her diary whatsoever.
19:25 Just a couple of phrases that I guess were misunderstood or misconstrued and by the husband and the police to be possible admissions to guilt.
19:36 But in October the 24th of oh three, she again sentenced to 40 years, she was told that she could not get parole for 30 years.
19:48 Well, about a year and a half later, February of oh five, her sentence was reduced to 30 years and she was eligible for parole in 25.
19:58 So, I mean, thanks for five years.
20:01 But anyway, they reduced her sentence.
20:03 So she was in protective custody to prevent violence by other inmates because we all know and we've all heard that when you're put in prison and accused of hurting or killing a child, no one else in prison, however bad they may be is ok with that.
20:21 And so they did protect her somewhat while she was there, even though in January of 21.
20:29 So, again, this is all pretty recent.
20:31 She was actually beaten by another roommate after they had moved her to a different prison.
20:39 So it's really sad.
20:40 Right?
20:41 You don't do anything wrong, you end up in prison and then you get beat up because everyone thinks you did something that you didn't do and not only have you lost your four Children, but you lose 20 years of your life and your husband and your home and your job.
20:56 And I mean, seriously in August of 18, there was a petition that raised some doubts and the judicial review actually said there was no reasonable doubt.
21:08 And then in March of 2021 there were actually 100 scientists that signed a petition to pardon her based on the scientific and medical explanations of the diseases or medical problems that these Children had.
21:24 Again, two of them had calm too, which is that mutation that predisposes them to sudden unexpected death by respiratory infections.
21:35 Caleb and Patrick carried a gene mutation called BS N, which is linked to early onset epilepsy in mice.
21:46 So it is kind of scary.
21:48 I mean, you always hear stories about people going to prison when they didn't do anything.
21:53 It's really sad if your spouse tries to make you look guilty again, other reasons, maybe that people thought it was suspicious because there are mothers who have murdered their Children.
22:06 And so it's not completely unheard of or crazy for us to think that a mom would do that.
22:12 But I love that she's out of prison that finally all the scientific evidence came to fruition and she's out, I would love to see what she does with her life from here on out.
22:26 I believe she's 54 now and residing somewhere in England.
22:31 I thought that that was really a good story to cover with y'all.
22:34 It's not something that we see very often.
22:37 I know many times when we have a young child found deceased, it is SIDS or co-sleeping where a parent tries to sleep in the same bed with the child and rolls over on top of them, or the child rolls off the bed and gets stuck between the bed and the wall or ends up turning over with their head in the pillow and can't turn themselves back over.
23:01 So we do see that happen a lot.
23:03 And I've also seen a lot of cases where the family members actually did kill the child and trying to make us think that they, you know, quote unquote, fell off the couch or that they just woke up and the child wasn't breathing.
23:18 However you can tell that their skull is fractured and there's bruises on their head.
23:23 So this was not the case though.
23:25 Here, there was absolutely no signs that this had happened.
23:29 It was based solely on circumstantial evidence.
23:34 So I'm really glad to see that this mom is free.
23:36 I hate that she's still has lost her Children and spent 20 years behind bars.
23:42 But let's hope that she makes some good out of it.
23:46 Thank you so much for joining me today on Pushing Up Lilies.
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24:00 Thanks again for spending your time with me and be sure to visit me at PushingUpLilies.com for merchandise and past episodes.